人物訪談

劉珩：感謝塚本由晴先生欣然接受《世界建筑導報》的采訪。您能將研究、學術和實踐結合，這對于建筑師來說并不常見。許多年來，您已經有許多關于共有性（commonality）、地質學以及東京城市研究的出版物。您對”非對稱化”的表達已被我們所熟知，這種特殊的風格將您的研究轉化為圖示。談到您在日本的建筑設計實踐，一些建筑師非常注重在構造方面的鉆研，但您將以上種種進行融合，形成社會性的、富有邏輯的且富有成效的表達。這與日本的其他建筑非常不同。請問您如何考量工具、研究和實踐的關系，您的研究與實踐如何相互影響？

塚本由晴：我在東京工業大學師承坂本一成學習建筑，在那里他既是設計教授，也是建筑師和學者，同時進行學術寫作、研究與設計實踐，這個方向確立于谷口吉郎創建之初。我意識到兩者兼顧是件很有趣的事。我想要建立一個研究的游樂場，尋找建筑設計游樂場的途徑。建筑實踐將會拓展游樂場的領域，因此研究和實踐并不矛盾。

一個重要原因是我試圖聯系建筑背景來理解設計。犬吠建筑事務所認為建筑設計并非將我們的想象力強加給設計對象。與20 世紀許多建筑師相比，我們不太堅持這種層面上的獨創性。對我們而言，建筑設計是協調、平衡和建立關聯，讓事情行之有效。從這個意義上說，建筑設計可以通過結構化事物間的關系而得到，這可以是主觀的關系，指向建筑、也可以指向周圍用戶的體驗。最重要的是每個項目的范圍，它們是某些類型建筑的關鍵切入點。通過觀察和觀察過往案例，我們能找到其背后的結構和網絡，理解材料和關系如何應用于某些條件與項目中，來推動設計，進而優化要素關系，這種干預就是建筑設計的驅動力。

劉珩：這是一個有趣的觀點。一般而言，從創意到形式是一種自上而下、比較強勢的設計方法，但您提出自下而上地、通過協作、問題和關系來進行設計，處理背后邏輯結構和框架。這種興趣會激發您進行進一步的研究。是這樣嗎？

塚本由晴：是的。寫作也如同圖示制作一樣需要運用結構，這個結構可以很“建筑”。這就是為什么我喜歡寫作，也喜歡制圖的原因。有時我會制作表格來解釋和比較不同的對象，要保持觀察方式的一致性。我在學校教授的深度設計需依靠制作表格來進行對比和強化，精美設計的圖表確實能夠幫助你推進設計思考。有時，學生沒有能力創造合適的表格和圖表來推進項目。制作圖表看似與建筑設計相去甚遠，但對我而言，它們極為重要且非常相似。

劉珩：這是一個非常有趣的方法論，通過寫作、草圖和圖表將基礎研究資料進行組織與再現，并在此基礎上發展為設計。你如何把這種方法教授給學生，并確保他們遵守這種規則？

塚本由晴：是的，他們做同樣的事情，但確實一開始很難教出最合適的方式。我們的確有主題與目標，但不知如何表述和比較，能夠配合適當的圖示表達。學生會先研究往案例和研究，而我要尋找與主題本身碰撞過程中、思想和認知改變的那一時刻。每次我也嘗試根據主題開發新的圖示，這個過程需要時間但很有趣。一旦找到圖形表達的方式，所有主題就變得很容易，讓你去思考更多案例，這就是設計過程。實際上，建筑學術寫作和研究非?；谶@種設計方法論和圖形表達。

劉珩：您的黑白圖紙一經問世便在建筑領域影響廣泛。您所說的“主題”和”圖形表達“，到底誰先誰后？或許您先嘗試多種圖形表達，然后找出最喜歡的圖示？

塚本由晴：是的，我會自己嘗試并向學生展示前期草圖。在一個農業區項目中，我們同一群在那里工作了23 年的農民一起復興當地的住戶、水稻梯田和村莊，他們已經在地開展藝術交流項目長達15 年。我們則是從 2019 年開始工作，三年以來建造房屋，并將倉庫改造成畫廊空間，設計社區廚房，開設農場，自己種田等等?，F在我們正在轉向下一個階段，在這片土地上為城市來的人們建造小房子，這樣他們就能留下來并參與到務農活動中來。我們現在正在設計這些小房子的總體規劃。為了給它們找到合適位置、完成設計和建造，我們需要新的圖形表達。我建議用等高線來代表設計，但在微觀尺度上圖繪并不精確，學生以1 米為基本單位繪制的等高線無法捕捉到地貌特征，我又建議他們將等高線密度改為每25 厘米一條，便能很好地呈現出豐富的景觀細節。如此，找到正確的方式來構建圖紙，至關重要。

劉珩：我們了解到您推崇的表現形式很像《清明上河圖》。那是一幅展現濱河集市的長卷。這和您的繪圖方式有點類似，沒有等級，同時呈現一切，將日常生活和公共空間并置在一起。這背后是否暗含著你的設計哲學？此外，我認為“精確”這一關鍵詞對理解您的主題和研究、以及圖示呈現方式非常重要。但要做到精確并不容易。

塚本由晴：我教導學生去精確觀察，這是對事物產生的一種情感形式。精確觀察可將這種情感轉變成主題。我尊重那些我們無法真正接觸或改變的事物，但是我們能夠改變其關系和框架。當事物被放置在不同的關系和框架中時，我們便能拓展其不同表征。我對引導它們運作的方式非常感興趣。精確的書寫和圖繪展現出我們對事物的興趣與尊重。我們不能改變每一個事物，但我們仍然可以與之互動。從這個意義上說，“游樂場”是非常準確有效的表達，我們可以在其中與事物“玩?！?。

劉珩：我第一次聽到“游樂場”這個詞。當您提到研究和建筑實踐之間的關系時，您將研究作為一種手段來強化或啟發“游樂場”的形成。為什么使用“游樂場”來定義實踐？這也是“共有性”的一部分？

Core House,Ishinomaki Miyagi

塚本由晴：研究和設計都是在處理和創造“游樂場”。試圖用類似《東京制造》所采用的簡單線條表現引導著許多年輕的建筑師和學生去展示各自生活的環境和城市，這就意味著他們已加入到這個《東京制造》的“游樂場”中?！稏|京制造》的這種建筑圖示方式使得人們能與迷你景觀和農業建筑等并不奪目的設計類型互動，以特殊的方式來欣賞它們。共有性是解釋“游樂場”的另一種方式，大家都能擁有并參與其中。特定的環境引發人們將城市空間調試和轉換為非?；钴S的公共空間。我對共有性感興趣，是因為它已經暗藏于我們每個人的內心，并融入到開放空間中，成為大家所共享的一種空間習性或文化?！豆灿行浴罚–ommonality）作為一種建筑領域，重視人的行為對公共空間的運作的影響，因為這種行為就是建筑能夠影響的一種“游樂場”?！肮灿行浴本褪窃诔鞘兄袑ふ胰藗兡軈⑴c的游樂場，通過觀察人們的行為、文化背景和生活習慣，我們能利用資源而使其成為可能?！豆灿行浴肪褪且槐娟P于“游樂場”的書。

現代建筑類型的背后是現代教育理念，它體現在學校、文化博物館和醫院中；行為也遵循這個概念。當人們漸漸習以為常，便學會如何享受和利用這些制度化的現代設施，進而成為現代人。但我所關心的共有性與制度化設施不同，概念不會超越現象而先行。行為總是優先，而后集體行為創造出一種調試城市空間的方式，從而最終變成文化和習慣、乃至變成可被享受的場所，這就是游樂場。

劉珩：這是一個相當系統的框架。你的研究和實踐都以行為為中心，個人行為變成集體行為，然后變成制度，而制度最終形成文化。這與您的個案實踐如何關聯？

塚本由晴：機構是個自上而下的概念，規范人們在設施中的行為。我對用行為來顛倒這種方式很感興趣。當個體行為成為集體行為，就能創造一種有包裹感的場所。人們可以做同樣的事情來一起享有它。設計也可以自下而上。你不能改變物質元素或禁止某種方式，但可以適當引導它們。比如說引導水的行為，我們能通過設計使之成為令人鼓舞和愉悅的水。萬物皆有行為，當我們充分了解物質的運作方式，就能成功地引導它們。

行為學是我采用的建筑手段的重要基礎和設計理念，也是研究日常生活、環境和社會的方法，設計研究就是去了解行為的發生。有時我們也觀察到因為某些思維定勢的社交障礙而阻礙了行為的發生。所以建筑設計可以是一種虛構作品，激發我提出一系列虛構的設定。我經常使用“行為解鎖”這個詞，用建筑的無形來引導行為，打造更好的可達性來突破障礙。例如采集城市落葉來在城市街道上生火做飯，包含兩種毫無瓜葛但始終在城市中共存的方式。如果我們能很好地結合這兩種事件，這便是行為解鎖。再比如犬吠事務所房子就屬于介于家庭住宅和辦公室之間的混合類型，20 世紀社會規范告訴人們要將家庭生活區和工作區分開，但我認為生活和工作混合是可能的，很容易便可打破社會規范來解鎖行為。

劉珩：說點不一樣的。你們在威尼斯雙年展中展示過參與地震災后建設，使得你去了解世代相傳的、狹小的私有土地的關系與使用方式，這是非?？鐚W科的、針對空間基礎結構的考古、規劃和經濟研究。該如何理解這種研究？

劉珩：很有趣。你相信進化或突變？

塚本由晴：這很重要且有趣，因為受環境情況和條件的影響。設計實踐最重要的挑戰是創造新興人群，我認為設計可以做到這一點。

劉珩：那么讓我們談談未來。因此，當我們談論您認識的新型人以及突變時，因為在過去的幾年中，Covid-19成為我們日常生活的新常態。我們準備好了嗎？現在社會的生活方式將如何重塑。你將不得不重新處理自己以適應新的條件，城市中的很多空間，也成為了一個非常激進的時刻，只是給我們重建日?？臻g留下了很多不確定性。

塚本由晴：我認為這很重要。如何重建我們的生活是大多數討論的主題，城市生活完全依賴于工業服務，我稱之為“冷酷的人力資源”。新冠病毒等自然災害向我們展示了脆弱的社會系統。我提出應將生活方式從人力資源轉變為人的資源，人可以得到周邊的資源，獲取食物和能量以構建生活。城市中的資源非常有限和受控，但你可以走出來而打造一種復合生活模式。周末我都把時間花在農田里，從山野中獲得食物和能量，自己做飯，感覺變得越發豐富了。建筑、城市和社會都是為人力資源而設計，我認為可以重新設計它們；對那些依賴于工業社會網絡的人們來說，沒有人的資源則是一種生命的缺失。

劉珩：那么你下一步的研究或實踐是什么？

塚本由晴：我正在考慮組建一個新的設計學院，就在山區農村。過去兩年中，我和我的學生在這里非常努力地工作，建造老房子、社區廚房、客舍和配有火爐和儲藏的畫廊，開辟草地和竹林的田地并種植水稻，我們還維護森林以便建筑木材之需。在非常有限的偏遠地區，物質循環很重要。我們向自然學習技能，以及在與泥巴、竹子、種子、樹木和水等自然元素打交道之時學到各種務農的技巧。我要為設計學院打造一個新的課程體系來教授設計新思維，這將是“游樂場”的一種新方式。來自四所大學的學生將在農場和山林間學習理解事物的關聯網絡，他們并不一定是建筑系學生，小涼亭和住屋使得城市居民能夠留下來，建造材料均產自當地，這有助于理解環境的影響。這種工作方式讓我非常振奮。

Doreen Liu (DL):Mr.Yoshiharu Tsukamoto,thanks for accepting the interview by World Architecture Review.You are excellent in combining research,academic and practice,which is rare for architects.You already have many publications about commonality,geology,as well as urban studies in Tokyo.We are very familiar with your theory on the asymmetric style.It is a very particular manner to translate your research into graphic presentation.In the architectural design’s point of view,some works of architects are very tectonic.You,on the other hand,are more integrated,not only of tectonics but also of social,logical and productive presentation.This is very different from other Japanese architects.So the first question is about the tool,research and practice.How do you consider them in the dynamics of your research and practice?

那幾天，她拼命打他的電話，她的話在心里憋著，電話卻一直打不通。終于打通一次，她歇斯底里的叫喊：“饒建，你他媽的不是人，你為什么躲我，要不把你的房子燒了，要不，我栽進湖里！”

Yoshiharu Tsukamoto (YT):I studied under the supervision of Kazunari Sakamoto at Tokyo Institute of Technology.He taught there as Design Professor,practicing architect and scholar,a tradition inherited from Yoshiro Taniguchi who founded the school.I’m impressed naturally by this mode and feel like working on both.One of the possible answers for me is to make a playground for research and architectural design.The latter will expend the realm of the playground,which combines research and design practice.

One important reason is that I try to understand architectural design with its background.Atelier Bow-Wow thinks architectural design not as something to impose our own imagination.We do not insist on such originality in comparing with contemporary architects.For us,architectural design is to coordinate,balance and relate with different things and finally to make them work well together.In that sense,architectural design can be structuralized by the relationship between several things.They can be subjective.We can study the relationship that reaches architecture and the experience of the users around.What is the most important is the scope of each project,which becomes the key issue in certain type of buildings.Discussing all these through watching and observing the precedent cases,you find a kind of structure and network behind it.We can understand how these materials and relationships go apply to these conditions,to work on projects,then to modify elements and relationship -a kind of intervention as the driving force of architecture.

DL:It is an imposing key word because architecture is more like a top-down process to bring ideas into forms.But you suggest an alternative design through coordination,problem-oriented and relationship.You deal with its logical structure and framework.That is kind of interest that inspires your further research.Right?

Haha 屋（日本，神奈川）Haha House (Chigasaki Kanagawa,Japan)

YT:Yes.It is equally true for writing which is like making graphics with structure.It can be very architectural.It’s why I like writing and working on graphic.Sometimes,I do a kind of table to explain and compare different things in a consistent manner of observation.I teach in the school very detailed design in a way of making tables to compare and emphasize them.Well-designed tables and graphics really help you to build thoughts.Sometimes,our students do not have skills to set up the proper tables and graphic representation for design.It looks like far from designing architecture,but a very important and identical tool for me.

DL:That’s a very interesting methodology.It means you do writing,sketches and diagrams.After organizing these on-field materials,you present the finding and then develop it into a design.How do you teach student about this and do they work as same as you do?

YT:Yeah,they do the same thing.It’s very difficult to teach in a most appropriate manner in the beginning.We have subject and target,but we don’t know how to represent and compare them with the help of proper graphic representation.Students are asked to examine previous cases and studies,and test several options.What I am looking for is the moment during which we change our minds and perceptions through encountering with the subject itself.And then the graphic.Every time I try to invent new graphic representation according to the subject.This process takes time but very interesting.Once you find the manner of graphic representation,all the subjects become quite easy to continue and to explore your thoughts to more cases.It is really a design process.Actually,academic writing and study on architectural design is very much based on that kind of design methodology and graphic representation.

DL:When your black-and-white drawings and renderings came out for the first time,it was shocking to the field of architecture worldwide.As you said about subject and presentation,which comes first?Perhaps you try different ways of presentation first,then find out the graphic you like most?

Haha 屋（日本，神奈川）Haha House (Chigasaki Kanagawa,Japan)

YT:Yeah,I try to show very rough sketches to students.For example,now I am working in farming area.We are revitalizing the popularity,rice terraces and villages together with interesting farmers living there for 23 years who invent different art and exchange program last 15 years.We go there 3 years ago from 2019,making house and transform the storage buildings into gallery space.We design community kitchen,open the farms and now grow rice by ourselves.Now we are shifting to another stage to building citizens’ tiny house in this fields so that people from cities can stay and also participate into farming.We are now designing the master plan of these tiny houses.In order to draw all these ideas to find the proper spot to build tiny houses,we need new graphics.I suggest translating the plan into contoured lines.But drawing doesn’t actually tell what happens in the micro scale.Now students utilized contour lines of every one meter,it’s already quite detailed but this resolution cannot really catch the topography of the rice terrace.So I propose them to densify the contour lines into every 25 centimeters.Now it’s working.By watching these contoured lines,different parts of landscape start to appear.Finding the proper manner and elements to construct the drawings is very important.

DL:We find out your presentation style and manner similar with a famous Chinese painting,Riverside Scene at Qingming Festival.It’s a long-scroll,riverside view of markets.Your drawing style is similar without hierarchy;and everything,including daily life and public space,co-exists simultaneously.So is there a kind of design philosophy behind it? Also,being“precise” is very important to understand your subject and research,as well as the graphical way you present.However it is not easy.

YT:I teach students to watch precisely and it’s one of the forms of affection to things.Watching precisely can turn affection into subject.I respect those things that we cannot really touch and change.Yet their relationship and framework are possible to change.By putting things with different relationships and frameworks,we could explore all their performances.I am interested in working with them and guide their performance.Writing and drawing precisely reflects our interest to respect things.We cannot change everything,but still we can do something with them.In that sense,the playground is again a quite useful and accurate expression.We can play with them.

DL:This is my first time to hear about the word“playground”.When saying the relationship between research and architectural practice,you set research as a means to enforce or inspire the playground.Why do you use “playground” to define practice? Is it a kind of definition for commonality?

Haha 屋（日本，神奈川）Haha House (Chigasaki Kanagawa,Japan)

YT:Both research and design deal with playground.The book of Made in Tokyo uses simple lines of drawing that inspire young architects and students to show their own living environment and cities.It means that they have joined our playground establish via Made in Tokyo.With it you can play with miniscape and agri-architecture,either of not necessarily beautiful architecture.Then you can appreciate these buildings in a special manner.Commonality is another way to explain the playground.Commonality is a chair that anyone can own and join to sit with.Certain circumstance triggers the human behavior to appropriate and transform the urban area into a very vibrate public space.The reason why I am interested in commonality is because that it has already been embedded into each individual,and also stoned into the open space and shared among people as a kind of habit or culture of space.Commonality as an architectural realm tries to see the operation of public space in terms of human behavior,a very important playground for architecture to intervene.Commonality seeks in the city the playground which is for people to join in and utilize.Through observing the behavior,cultural background and habits of people,we utilize resource to achieve it.Commonality is a book of playground.

Behind the modern building types,there is a modern concept of education,which multiplies in schools,cultural museum and hospitals,etc.Then behavior follows this concept.When people gradually get used to it,they learn how to enjoy and utilize these facilities as buildings of institution,and then become modern people.They are buildings of institution.But I relate most to commonality with those that are different from institutional facilities,No concept precedes phenomena.Behavior comes first,and the collective behavior creates a kind of spatial manner to appropriate the city.Then it becomes culture,habit and a place that people enjoy– the playground.

DL:It’s quite a systematic framework.Your behaviorcentered research and practice makes individual behaviors into collective ones,and it becomes institutionalized and eventually culture.How can this lead to your case-by-case practice?

YT:Institution is a top-down concept to let people learn to behave in facilities.I am interested in an upsidedown process that starts from behavior.Once behavior becomes collective,it delivers a kind of place with enclosure.Everyone can enjoy it at the same time by doing the same things.Design can be also bottom-up.You cannot change the nature of element or prohibit certain manner,but we can guide them to perform in certain direction.If talking about the behavior of water,we design and make it encouraging and pleasing.All things behave.We understand the nature of elements about how they behave,then we can guide and make them work together.

ANI 屋（日本，神奈川）ANI House (Chigasaki Kanagawa,Japan)

Behaviorology is a very important basis for my architectural suits and design philosophy.It is also the method of studying everyday life,environment and society.Design research is to understand what happens to behavior.Sometimes we also find behavior being blocked due to mind-set social barriers.So architecture design can be a kind of fiction that interests me to introduce fictional scenarios.I often use the word “unlocking behavior” to use invisible architecture that guides our behavior to overcome barriers with better accessibility.For example,we collect mass debris from the maintenance of trees and cook with real fire on the city street.The two behaviors never meet each other,yet existing all the time.It is unlocking behavior if we make them work together.For example,my Bow-Wow house is of a very hybrid form between family house and architectural office.People follow 20th-century social canon and believe that house is simply dedicated for family,and office for work,which leads them to separate from each other.But living and work can possibly be together.I think it easy to break the social canon and to unlock behavior.

DL:Let's talk about something different.In the Venice biennial,I know you are very active in participating after-earthquake reconstruction.It leads you to understand the relationship and use of land through generations.You try to reflect that kind of understanding by examining very narrow,individually owned piece of land.That is very interdisciplinary from archaeology,planning and economy in terms of spatial infrastructure.How does this interdisciplinary research define itself?

YT:It is a study of ethnography,urban ecology and topology for the construction of daily life.For example,in the study of metabolism,a sequence of four generations defines the direction of design based on a genealogical transformation of a single family housing in Tokyo.It’s again very structural understanding by research for further projecting different intervention.

DL:It’s interesting.So you believe in evolution or mutation?

YT:This is the most important and interesting thing activity affected by environmental circumstances.The most important challenge of design practice is to propose new types of people.I think design can do that.

ANI 屋（日本，神奈川）ANI House (Chigasaki Kanagawa,Japan)

DL:So let's talk about future.When we talk about new type of people,it is also about mutation like the Covid-19.In Japan,disasters like earthquake become normal in our everyday life.One has to re-address new conditions.It is a very radical moment with many uncertainties for us to reconstruct our daily space.Is it true for your research in Japan?

YT:I think it's very important.It's a main subject of discussion about how we re-construct our life.Life in the city is totally dependent on the industrial services,which I always criticize as cold human resource.The Covid-19 and natural disasters show us how we depend on weak and fragile social networks.I propose to shift our way of living from the human resource to the resource for human,for which one can secure resource around and grasp food and energy by hands to construct life.Resource is very limited and controlled in the city.You go out from the city and make a hybrid form of life.In the weekend,I spend time in farming and then grasp food and energy from the mountain and fields.We cook by ourselves and become resourceful.Once,architecture,city and society have been designed for human resources;but I think we can redesign them for resourceful human.For people being dependent on industrial society network,it's a kind of lacking of life.

DL:So what's your next move of your research or practice?

YT:I am thinking about setting up a new School of Design in the mountain farming village where for the last two years I and my students have been working really hard and building traditional houses,community kitchen,guest house and gallery space with firewood and stock.We reopen the field occupied by weeds and bamboos and then start rice growing again.We also maintain the forest and utilize these trees for timber construction.We create this material circulation in the very limited local area.We learn the skills via nature,as well as very specific behaviors of farming activities with natural elements like mud,bamboos,seeds,trees and water.I'm very interested to construct a kind of curriculum for the new School of Design to teach new way of designing.It's a great shift of the playground.Four different universities,not necessarily architectural students,join this school of design to work on farms and forests and to understand the relational network of things.Small pavilions and tiny houses allow city people to stay.The materials for construction are from the place,based on the understanding of surrounding impacts.I'm very excited to work on this direction.

ANI 屋（日本，神奈川）ANI House (Chigasaki Kanagawa,Japan)