對話安藤忠雄——建筑，一場永無止境的挑戰

FA：安藤忠雄先生，您好！首先祝賀您的雙個展在上海復星藝術中心及順德和美術館順利開幕，全球疫情尚未結束，大量藝術活動和藝術機構還處于停擺之際，在中國舉辦兩個大規模個展，對您而言有何不同于往常的意義？

安藤：我已經79歲了，目前還沒有停止工作的打算。不管你的年齡多大，做一個未成熟的青蘋果總比做一個成熟的紅蘋果好。不成熟就是要年輕，要天真，要有活力，要去不斷嘗試可能以失敗告終的冒險。引用一首我最喜歡的詩人塞繆爾·厄爾曼（Samuel Ullman）的詩《青春》中的句子：“歲月悠悠，衰微只及肌膚； 熱忱拋卻，頹廢必致靈魂?！?/p>

這兩個展覽是我近半個世紀的職業生涯的記錄，包括正在進行的項目和尚未完成的工程，以及各種各樣的創意挑戰，囊括了我從職業拳擊手到自學成才的建筑師的成長歷程。自從1969年我創立了自己的第一個工作室以來，我不斷在嘗試用建筑來顛覆原有的審美觀念，創造一個新的設計世界。作為一個以全世界為工地的建筑師，我總是持續努力創作新作。

我們生活的時代，世界正在以驚人的速度發生巨變，新冠肺炎的全球大流行打亂了我們的生活方式。盡管如此，我依然相信為人類提供建筑和藝術是至關重要的。文化滋養我們的身心，讓我們的生活充滿活力和激情，我認為這種力量總有可能以超乎我們想象的方式為人類社會帶來新的價值。

FA：在復星藝術中心現場，我們看到您大量的項目模型，這些項目遍及世界各地，在全球化所帶來的同質化語境下，針對不同城市的風貌特征和文化肌理與新建筑的關系，您都試圖給出回應，從1988年中之島都市巨蛋古典平面中置入的大卵，到曼哈頓頂層公寓突出立面的大玻璃盒子，這些看上去很瘋狂的方案是對現代都市建筑的一種反叛嗎？

安藤：建筑是經濟社會的產物之一。一項工程是由客戶與建筑團隊共同參與實現整體結構的協作工作。這一切都是在滿足各種條件的同時完成的，包括成本、法律法規、工程期限等等。在這個高度復雜的創造系統中，你幾乎找不到能夠自由表達的空隙，或者去追求你的設計“夢想”。然而，對我來說，建筑的本質恰恰就存在于其中，在深陷沖突中去突破限制。

我在工作中會時常偏離這套社會框架，轉向追求理想的、純粹的、單一的建筑形式。這方面最突出的例子是1989年首次宣布的中之島都市巨蛋工程，我在還沒有得到官方委托的情況下，就開始構思這個位于大阪市中心的中之島的文化綜合體工程。這項工程的中心就是嵌套在歷史悠久的中之島公共大廳內的，被稱為都市巨蛋的改造項目。我的想法是在大廳結構的內部插入一個巨蛋，同時保持建筑原有結構的完整性。從這個概念出發，我就一直在研究一種將大阪的記憶嵌入中之島的建筑中的方法。至于這個概念如何實現，我尚且沒有明確的方案。因此，我依舊致力于創作圖紙和模型，希望能更大膽、更深刻地向世界傳達這種新型建筑的理念。

這種類型的建筑首先應該通過在地語境的對話來回應地方性，即本地的文化和歷史景觀。這種觀念并不總是與環境達成和諧一致的表達，有時候，恰恰是完全對立沖突的，突兀大膽的干預產生對城市的全新詮釋，在20世紀下半葉的巴黎建筑中有很好的先例，從蓬皮杜中心到盧浮宮新館，也許最重要的是它們對現有的城市主義機制所作的批判宣言，讓建筑成為這種不妥協精神的代言。這種批判越純粹，建筑就會越激進，就越會挑戰現有的社會秩序。當眾多能夠克服這些沖突的建筑形成網絡，環境被注入鮮活力。

FA：今天全球城市的發展都將面臨靈活性及可持續性這兩大問題，在您看來哪些新技術新材料的出現會給建筑實踐帶來根本的轉變以應對上述問題？后疫情時代，建筑又將如何回應這個越來越復雜分化和沖突不斷的社會？

安藤：都市環境的問題歸根結底是現代社會人造景觀與自然資源的不平衡造成的。如果我們從建筑環境的角度來看這個問題，解決方案可以抵達兩個極端：一個是“低技術”世界，明顯地減少能源消耗； 另一個是“高科技”世界，通過使用可再生能源，讓技術在緊湊、人工化的生活模式中發揮效應。

無論我們朝哪個方向走，現代社會的城市活動都要受到限制。世界必須改變，最重要的是我們要有問題意識，要改變價值觀。為了一個可持續的未來而改變城市架構不能僅僅通過政治家、開發商和建筑師的力量來實現，我們需要借力地球上的每一個人。自然不是我們的權利，而是我們被賦予的特權。為了環境的發展，人類也必須進化。

FA：在半個多世紀的建筑師生涯中，您形容自己是屢敗屢戰，競標與拳擊一樣，都必須抱有高昂的斗志，以及擊敗對手的強烈欲望。在復星藝術中心展出的百余件建筑模型中，哪一個競標項目對您而言有著非同尋常的意義？

安藤：在一場拳擊比賽中，等待鈴響的那一刻最令人興奮，也最讓人神經崩潰，每一個新的建筑項目也要求你有同樣的精神狀態。在拳擊比賽中，你必須冒險將自己置于危險之中，逼迫自己拿出最佳的技術，最終贏得比賽。建筑不僅僅是造一幢房子，重要的是還要創造出一些東西。這就需要有冒險的勇氣，敢于向未知多邁一步，這是至關重要的。一名拳擊手苦練多年，就是為了拳擊場上幾分鐘就結束的回合，這就是一場戰斗，簡單而原始的戰斗。然而建筑是一場遠超過三分鐘的漫長的比賽，但你必須像拳擊手一樣保持緊張感。有時候，建筑師也會被成名的欲望誘惑而失去自律，忘記自己事業起步時的孤獨無助。拳擊是一種嚴格自律和孤獨的運動，你在把身心推向絕對極限的過程中變得強壯。建筑也是如此。每個工程都有嚴格的計劃和預算，沒有多少任你自由發揮的余地。你必須想清楚真正必要的是什么，你需要建造的是什么。

FA：在中國的項目中，請您先以順德和美術館為例，談談您對嶺南建筑、文化的理解，以及您又是如何將這些傳統融入美術館的創意與設計中的？設計的原點是什么？

安藤：我首先想到的是，這座建筑要表現一大片水中濺起的一道漣漪，它的核心位于“跌落的鵝卵石”的隱喻上，隨著濺起波紋的直徑逐漸增大，水的能量反射到周圍環境中。這個設想造就了美術館的主體是四個垂直堆積的圓形體，它們以固定的增量擴散增長，重疊圓立體的排列創造出擁有清晰的同軸的獨立空間，充滿動力和變化，呼應著城市自身的能量。核心筒將整個概念連接在一起，成為美術館中最具象征意義的重要空間。

從項目一開始，客戶就決定以“和”字命名美術館，表達他們希望通過藝術和文化，創造和諧共生，和睦相處的愿望。我完全接受這個想法，在設計過程中加入了許多表達這個意愿的設計。

美術館的入口，包含著自然和人工的強烈對比，給參觀者意想不到的“驚喜”。圍繞入口水景的是被綠植覆蓋的雙層混凝土墻，墻壁和綠植蜿蜒起伏，墻體與植物間可透可視，創造出空間的深度，這個設計的靈感來自中國傳統園林。水景的重要性不僅在于映照建筑物，它也協調了建筑與周圍景觀及城市環境的和諧。

嶺南文化有其獨特的力量，也大大啟發了美術館的設計。而嶺南傳統深受中原文化思想的影響，和美術館的設計目標之一就是傳承中華文化的力量。然而，我并不想使用傳統的文化標示來表達這個主題，而是希望融入文化背后精神性的精髓。嶺南地區的古代南越王國文化中，圓是和諧（陰陽）和吉祥的象征，這可以在許多歷史的建筑和藝術品中看得到。美術館的圓形代表了根植于當地方言的幾何學。

FA：和美術館籌備5年，建造花了3年，和美術館的清水混凝土雙螺旋中庭樓梯結構在施工中難度是非常大的，聽說最后還是派了與您長期合作的青木先生過來，工程才得以順利進行，在項目結束后您給當地的施工團隊寫了一封信，能否透露一些信中的內容？

安藤：和美術館核心筒的雙螺旋混凝土樓梯是這座建筑的靈魂，但建造起來確實很難。圍繞樓梯的混凝土墻壁支撐著螺旋樓梯，是整個美術館的核心；它的設計包含一種象征性的螺旋體驗，是建筑結構的核心。

建筑無論大小，總會有各種問題，所以就是在不斷克服問題中，一座牢固的建筑才得以誕生。我們在施工現場與青木先生無休止地對話，當地建筑師和施工團隊的不懈奉獻，確保了建筑高質量地完成。在任何工程中，當地施工隊都是直接解決施工現場問題的首選，我非常感謝當地施工團隊和當地建筑師的努力。

FA：在傳統的建筑營造中，建筑師與工匠們是同在現場的合作關系，而現代建筑學科的發展令建筑學過于細分，建筑師與營造開始脫離，我們該如何看待手工建造和傳統工藝的價值，也請您順便談一談您與不同國家地區的工匠們合作中的趣事，以及他們之間的差異。

安藤：起初在中國做項目時，我試著遵循在日本時的設計和施工。但中國有不同的價值觀和文化，在日本能夠實現的想法也不能在中國精準復制，這倒不是因為技術能力，而是文化差異。通過我在中國過去幾十年的建筑生涯，我認識到了中國巨大的能量和活力，最近幾個項目的成功實施證明了中國建筑技術水平的巨大飛躍。

我工作的每個國家都有各自的建筑方法、材料類型和文化差異。然而，所有國際項目的共同點是有一個充滿激情的甲方和施工團隊。建筑是一種團隊工作，需要許多有才華和勤奮的人之間的信任和協作才能實現。

FA：在所有的已建成項目中，有沒有出現過您所不能接受的失誤？甚至是失??？畢竟混凝土澆筑只有一次機會，在拆開模具的瞬間，您還會緊張嗎？您為何如此鐘愛混凝土這種語言？隨著新技術新材料的出現，例如3D打印的普遍使用，您是否會考慮在未來的項目中做一些新的建筑實驗？

安藤：混凝土是當代建筑的材料象征，全球任何地方都有，但我的熱情一直是用這種隨處可見的材料創造無處可尋的空間。

混凝土的魅力在于它能夠根據地域和使用者的不同而變化，每次使用，所表達的深度都會完全改變。勒·柯布西耶用起混凝土來就像是黏土，做雕塑一樣發揮混凝土的可塑性。路易斯·康把混凝土用得像鋼一樣堅硬。同樣的材料，兩種完全不同的效果。同樣，在我的職業生涯中，我也一直在尋找我自己的使用混凝土的方式，就像做日本屏風的和紙一樣。

FA：傳統的中國南方建筑與日本建筑對于空間的理解是有相通之處的，西方建筑以物為先，空間總體是圍合的，東方則以關系為先，空間多是半開放的；日本建筑的特點概括而言便是兩塊木板的關系，重在輕盈，其中的櫞側設計更是一大特點，通過它可以將建筑內外空間靈活地隔斷或連接。 從空間關系處理來看，您的建筑似乎更接近歐洲建筑傳統，更為注重光影的游戲、空間的戲劇性張力以及幾何體的運用？

安藤：對我來說，東西方建筑最大的差異就在于光的運用，以及實與空的觀念。光是一面鏡子，反映一個地方的文化。西方建筑史的觀念一直是在石料上開孔，讓光穿透出來，照亮黑暗。像羅馬的萬神殿，光線隨著太陽運動的軌跡不斷變化，從圓孔中流淌出來；還有塞南克修道院，純粹且樸素的光線傳遞終極的靈性。日本是一個島國，溫和的氣候使得區分內外的“墻體”顯得不那么重要，傳統建筑中的元素，例如日本屏風，就如木質或是紙質的“傘”呵護著屋檐下生活的我們。光線在傳統的日本建筑中不是直射的太陽光，而是陰影造就的斑駁柔和的光。在光線的認知和使用上，我受到的影響來自東方和西方。

FA：現代主義建筑強調形式與功能的一體化，然而我們仍處于片面追求地標性建筑的時代，過分張揚的形式必然會導致功能的缺失，您又是如何做取舍的？一座好的建筑應該擁有哪些品質？今天重新再看柯布西耶、密斯·范·德·羅、路易斯·康、賴特這些現代主義大師所創造的建筑原型，我們還有推陳出新的可能嗎？或者說，我們還能把失去的那些思想精髓重新找回來嗎？

安藤：建筑與其他藝術最大的區別就在于它的功能性。我所說的功能，并不是指一座建筑使用起來的難易性，而是人之于建筑空間是否存在恰當的比例。不管是一座已經完工的建筑，還是一個尚未實現的工程，甚至是一個信馬由韁想象出來的建筑方案，如果沒有將人的因素考慮進去，建筑就不存在。建筑生成的體系與對這一體系的解析，都與建筑本身息息相關。

然而，藝術與建筑的界限是什么呢？藝術家有膽識勇往直前，建筑師也必須敢于突破，挑戰未知世界的恐懼是人類的共情，只有藝術與建筑的結合方可推陳出新，超越建筑與藝術的界限，捕捉新的人類表達自由的形式。

FA：您曾經說過到75歲以后也許會回到最初的狀態，做一些有趣的小項目。您的住吉的長屋和神戶4×4的住宅都有著豐富的建筑表情，倔強生動又充滿張力，這些特質在大體量項目中就很難再看到了。您今天還會堅持承接這類小的項目委托嗎？

安藤：是的，我為陶瓷藝術家黑田泰藏設計了一個只有17平方米的非常小的畫廊，黑田太郎先生不幸在本月去世了。我設計了一個淺水池，黑田先生的陶瓷作品能夠映射其中。

FA：您設計了大量的住宅，我很好奇您自己又是住在怎樣的房子里？我的建筑師朋友們很想知道，您在生活中除了鍛煉還有什么喜好嗎？我倒是覺得您可能是位禁欲主義者。

安藤：我住在離辦公室五分鐘路程的一座高樓里，我想我不會喜歡住在我自己設計的房子里，混凝土夏天太熱，冬天太冷！

我的愛好之一是種樹，在我家鄉大阪周圍植樹搞綠化。這個愛好始于1995年阪神地震后，我開始在來年加入兵庫綠化網絡。我常聽人說在地震中，大樹可以保護房屋免于坍塌，神戶地震發生后，我曾立即去那邊實地考察，第一次看到災后的頭一個春天里盛開著白色木蘭花，似乎在安慰那些在災難中失去親人的人。在當地政府制定災后造房的建設項目時，我產生了一個想法，在計劃建造的12萬5000座住房中，每個單元種兩棵樹。通過在建筑物之間植樹，我希望綠化能夠創造新的社區，修復震后的城市景觀。非常感謝日本各地居民和城鎮的捐款，我們才超額完成了最初的目標，種下30多萬棵樹。從那以后，植樹成為我一直堅持的事業，我還做了東京灣的海洋森林和在直島種植櫻花樹。

FA：日本六七十年代涌現出了大批文化先鋒人物并影響了世界，請您給我們講講您對那個時期的一些深刻印象以及您與藝術家朋友交往的故事。第一次在白發一雄的行為現場所感受到的沖擊一定很強烈吧！前衛藝術對于您在建筑實踐中最直接的觸動和幫助又是什么？

安藤：圍繞在1954年成立的“具體派”（gutai）藝術運動周遭的是一大批不同類型的藝術家，例如向井修二畫象形符號，松谷武判用鉛筆把畫布填滿了黑色。參與到具體派中的每個人似乎都有些古怪的個性，包括創始成員吉原治良和島本昭三，以及田中敦子、元永定正等人。他們并不像藝術家，他們對自己的生活方式不在乎，只在乎如何用獨特的方式表達自己。對他們來說，藝術是一種突破束縛自由思考的現有社會習俗和制度，他們從一開始就用自己的眼睛審視周邊。

除了具體派，我還和一些藝術家和設計師有過聯系，比如草間彌生、三宅一生等等。他們在各自領域探索未知的挑戰精神激勵了我，我與他們相處甚歡，因為我們都是在同一條路上，最大限度地挑戰創造的可能性。我相信，藝術的“財富”就是它能夠被多樣化解讀的“自由”，當自由馳騁于風景之間，隱藏于人們的日常生活中，這樣的社會才是真正的繁榮社會。

FA：理查德·朗（Richard Long）是我很喜歡的一位藝術家，他在大地間的行走和留下的作品讓我想到中國的道家思想，一種身心和諧的生命超越精神，他的作品也最終成為了自然，就像您在直島所建造的那些美麗而靜寂的掩體，您還記得理查德·朗在直島留下的作品嗎？

安藤：當然記得，這里還有一個有趣的故事呢。其實這是福武總一郎先生的愿望，他想要把理查德·朗（Richard Long）的作品放入我在直島設計的倍樂生之家（ Benesse House ）美術館里。福武先生有種很強的直覺，他相信如果他把顏料和畫筆放在美術館的空墻旁，理查德·朗可能就會拿起筆來作畫。果不其然，事情就是按照他的設想發生了，現在美術館墻上有兩件理查德·朗的畫，就是他直接畫在墻上的。

FA：和美術館的《超越：安藤忠雄的藝術人生》的第一篇章《超越藝術》展出了包括 畢加索（Pablo Picasso）、埃爾斯沃斯·凱利（Ellsworth Kelly）、亞歷山大·考爾德（Alexander Calder）、理查德·朗（Richard Long） 、安尼施·卡普爾（Anish Kapoor）、達米恩·赫斯特（Damien Hirst）、白發一雄、吉原治良、李禹煥、杉本博司十位藝術家的重要代表作，您為這十件作品各自設計了不同的空間。邵舒館長告訴我為了配合您這個展覽，團隊根據您的《都市彷徨》所提及的藝術線索專門收藏了其中八件作品，這些都幾乎是天價之作！中國有句話，千金易得，知音難求，你有著令所有建筑師都會嫉妒的甲方，這些友誼也像您的建筑一樣成為了傳奇，您到底是如何做到的？

安藤：我對藝術的認知是建立在我年輕時與當代藝術的一次次生動接觸的記憶上的。杰克遜·波洛克（Jackson Pollock）的行動繪畫， 20世紀60年代聰明的波普藝術，以及日本第一個具有全球影響力的前衛藝術運動，具體派藝術協會（Gutai art Association）。具體派藝術家對我的影響非常重要，因為我們都住在日本關西地區，常常有聯系。

保持與他人的關系對于一名建筑師是至關重要的，當你和一群志同道合者充滿激情地一起工作時，你們之間就會建立起來相互理解和尊重的聯系。我從不搞關系，我在不斷地向周圍的人學習。

FA：直島項目歷時30年，如同自然界的生物般生長交織，完美地演繹了您對于建筑的烏托邦想象。直島就像是您的大道場，在藝術的加持下，頹敗荒廢的小島擁有了近乎永恒的生命。您和福武總一郎、李禹煥先生在第13屆上海雙年展共同帶來的講座——“‘滲透’—‘海之復權’與鄉土重生”，為當下中國的鄉村建設與鄉村復興運動帶來了特別的樣本，“直島模式”也已被福武先生帶到中國山東桃花島，到底是什么樣的信念讓福武先生和您堅持了30年？

安藤：直島是在倍樂生控股公司（Benesse Holdings，Inc.）的福武總一郎（Soichiro Fukutake）總裁的熱情支持下開啟的項目。

要使建筑與自然達到完全統一，需要時間和耐心。設計和建造并不是挑戰，真正的挑戰在于工程竣工后的維護和對它的熱愛。我相信建筑師有責任培養他們的作品，讓它們在時間的推移中漸漸成熟起來。在過去的30年里，我在直島全身心地投入，建造了七個博物館。藝術、自然和人的碰撞激蕩人心，產生無數可能性，直島上嵌入地下的幾何體建筑物誘發著游客的想象力，搭建起人與藝術及環境的對話。

我在直島的大部分建筑都遮掩在大自然里，每棟建筑的外觀并不暴露建筑內部的設計，參觀者可以不去理會建筑的外形，而將注意力集中在身處藝術作品和景觀之中的個人感受及對空間的體驗。許多藝術作品放置在島上的公共空間，瀨戶內海的大自然成為給每一位藝術家搭建的舞臺。藝術家也常常以周圍環境為靈感，創作在地作品。在直島的所有項目中，我一直堅持的理念就是藝術、建筑和自然的結合，共同打造復興的力量。

FA：城市更新與鄉村復興已成為當下及未來中國城鎮規劃的重要課題，這也給更多的年輕建筑師提供了舞臺。 面對蕭瑟萎靡又空心化的鄉鎮，日本有很多經驗值得我們學習和借鑒。建造之外，在地性、可循環、持續性甚至是產業結構和項目運營似乎都是建筑師需要面對的問題，在您看來，今天的建筑師身份是否更為復雜也更充滿了挑戰？

安藤：我們正處在一個文明的轉折點上，經濟增長時代正在進入下滑和衰退期。在日本和中國等亞洲國家，普遍存在著建筑翻新維修與拆遷重建的問題，維修的范圍包含從文化遺產的恢復和保護，到普通建筑的改造和再利用。盡管維修建筑的類型看起來完全不同，但它們都是以利用現有建筑的卓越理念為前提，而不是一味地拆除。

對建筑的維修實質上是對居住地的共同歷史記憶的保護?？疾煲幌掳屠杌蚣~約這樣的大都市，我們可以發現，城市歷史的聚合孕育了城市文化。歷史是通過有形的物件保留下來的，而不是用信息或虛擬現實塑造出來的某種依附在城市肌理之上的臨時性的所謂文化“土壤”來傳遞的。當然，建筑物在變老，對維修和保護它們所需的技術力量和經濟實力的要求就更高；有時，保護建筑物的歷史和記憶的努力可能正是如何對其有效地再利用的最大障礙。然而，我相信改造的目的就是為了傳承歷史，它的眾多好處遠遠超過為它過度消耗勞動力和創造力所帶來的挑戰。傳統與現代的頻繁對話將喚起從過去到現在再到未來的時間交織的城市肌理。時間和空間相互交融，以確保我們的城市能夠為子孫后代繼續維持生計。

FA：《FA財富堂》雜志有一個建筑設計板塊，專門用來介紹中國青年建筑師的鄉村建設項目，并為此設立了一個“FA青年建筑師獎”，以鼓勵更多的年輕人特別是主流建筑流派之外的建筑師群體參與到鄉村建設中?？煞裾埬鸀檫@個活動送上您的寄語，以激勵這些青年人的斗志。

安藤：我會告訴我年輕的自己，永遠去追求你認為具有挑戰性的事業，永遠不要放棄你的夢想。我相信，無論你是否選擇做一名建筑師，二十多歲都是影響你今后生活的關鍵年齡。如果你能在自己敏感的二十幾歲保持警覺，這將決定你能否在四五十歲時過上你想要的生活。

在這一時期，年輕人尋找自己的理想，創造自己的世界觀，可以說這是塑造自我的年紀。在我二十幾歲的時候，我遇到了一些人和事，這些人和事最終塑造了我的本質，造就了今天的我。二十幾歲是一個與他人建立密切關系的時期，在這時候的經歷直接影響了我后來的工作。我年輕的時候有很多朋友在京都大學學建筑，通過他們，我了解了哲學家和辻哲郎和西田幾多郎，他們在當時的學生中有很高聲望。命運真是件有趣的事，1980年，我在姬路創建了和辻哲郎紀念館，并有幸設計了石川縣西田幾多郎哲學博物館。在我年輕的時候開闊了我的視野的各種經歷直到今天依舊對我有影響，始終如此。

FA：如果您當年沒有看到柯布西耶的作品全集，您還有可能從事建筑職業嗎？

安藤：我不確定未來會發生什么，我盡量不去想“如果”的情景，就是繼續不停地朝著未來走吧。

FA：最后，我想給您講一個發生在我身邊的故事。第一屆“FA青年建筑師獎”有一位獲獎者，來自中國湖南鄉村的年輕人，他沒學過建筑，也沒上過大學，他的理想就是可以留在北京，并且擁有自己的房子。直到有一天，在北京潘家園的舊書攤上他看到了一本書，這本書的主人公令他欽佩不已，他隨即決定要重新啟動自己的人生。為此他賣掉了自己在北京的房子，并切斷了與外界的全部聯系，去到一所大學的建筑系做了幾年的旁聽生。在獲獎之后，他被大家戲稱為“自學成才的野生建筑師”，這位年輕人叫王求安，他看到的那本書，是您的《屢敗屢戰》。

非常感謝您接受我的采訪，祝您健康長壽，平安快樂！也期待上海的安藤忠雄畫廊盡快與大家見面！

FA： Dear Mr. Tadao Ando， how are you？ First of all， allow me to congratulate you on the successful opening of your two solo exhibitions in China -Shanghai Fosun Art Center and Shunde He Art Museum. At a time when the global pedantic is still ruling the world and a large number of art events and art institutions are still closed ， holding two large-scale solo exhibitions in China must mean something specific to you than usual.

Tadao Ando： I am seventy-nine years old and do not plan to stop working anytime soon. No matter your age， it is better to be an unripe green apple than a mature red apple. To be unripe is to be youthful， to be na？ve， to be energetic. It is vital to continually attempt ventures that might end in failure. To quote one of my favorite poems，"Youth" by Samuel Ullman， "Years may wrinkle the skin， but to give up enthusiasm wrinkles the soul."

These exhibitions follow my near half-century career trajectory， ongoing and future projects， and various creative challenges. Both of these exhibitions trace my history from a professional boxer to a self-educated architect. Since launching my atelier in 1969， I have attempted to create a new world of design by repeatedly overturning preconceived aesthetic notions with architecture. As a globally active architect， I strive to undertake new endeavors and projects consistently.

We live in a time when the world is changing dramatically at an incredible speed， with the COVID-19 Pandemic disrupting our way of life. Despite these circumstances， I believe that it is vital to provide architecture and art to all people. Culture nourishes our minds and bodies and helps to color our lives with vibrance and passion. I think that this power will always have the potential to bring new value to human society in ways beyond our imagination.

FA：At the exhibition in fosun art center， you showed a lot of your world-wide project models. The globalization process has turned our world more homogeneous than ever. Under such circumstances， you have made much effort to respond to the cultural characters of each city and their relationship with the new architecture individually. We can see such effect in your projects， for example the giant egg in Osaka Nakajima from 1988 and the big glass box on Manhattan penthouse. They may even look quite in sane！ Do you see these kinds of projects the rebellion against modern urban architecture？ What is your move for reconcile the increasingly strong contradiction between globalization and localism？

Tadao Ando：Architecture is one of the products of an economic society. The client， together with the construction team， engages in a collaborative effort to realize the overall structure. This is done all while working to satisfy a variety of conditions – costs， legal regulations， deadlines – one by one. Within this highly sophisticated production system， one finds little leeway for expressive freedom， or in pursuing whatever "dream" one has in store for the structure. However， for me， the essence of architecture can be found precisely at these times – when one is locked in conflict， acting in defiance of restrictive conditions.

From time to time， I diverge from working within such societal frameworks， moving instead towards a pure， single-minded pursuit of the ideal architectural form. The most prominent example of this is the Nakanoshima Urban Egg Project， first announced in 1989. Without being commissioned， I began conceiving plans for a cultural complex – located in Nakanoshima in the heart of Osaka. At its center was the renovation project known as the Urban Egg， nested within the historic Nakanoshima Public Hall. My idea was to insert an ovaloid volume within the interior of this structure while leaving the original structure intact. Upon the inception of this concept， I began investigating a method to embed the memories of Osaka into the architecture of Nakanoshima， on to the future. I had no definitive agenda behind its realization. For this very reason， I dedicated myself to the drawings and models of this project– all in the hope of more boldly， more profoundly communicating a new type of architecture to the world. This type of architecture should respond to the physical， cultural， and historic landscape of "place" via a contextual dialogue. This discourse does not always imply notions of harmony or conformity with the environment. Daring interventions that wholly contradict their site with obtrusive idiosyncrasies can generate new interpretations of the city. Marvelous precedents for these ideologies were manifested in the architectural culture of the latter half of the 20th century with projects in Paris， from the Pompidou Centre to the Grand Louvre museum. Perhaps what is essential is to produce critical declarations towards existing institutions of urbanism and for buildings to act as emissaries of this uncompromising spirit. The purer this criticism and the more radical this architecture， the more it will challenge the order of society. A network of critical structures that overcome these conflicts can breathe life into the built environment.

FA：The development of the future global cities will have to face two major problems： flexibility and sustainability. In your opinion， which new technologies and materials will bring fundamental changes to the architecture of the future？

Tadao Ando：Environmental problems including those within the confines of the metropolis are ultimately caused by the imbalance between the artificial and the natural resources in the modern world. If we look at the solution to this problem within the realm of the built environment， we can arrive at two extremes： a "low-tech" world where we use significantly less energy and a "hightech" world where technology allows us to live compactly and artificially by consuming renewable energy.

Whichever direction we head in， our urban activities as a society will have to be restricted. The world must change. What is most important is for that change to share an awareness of issues and shifting values. Changing the framework of cities for a sustainable future cannot be achieved solely through the power of politicians， developers， and architects. We need to borrow the strength of every living person on Earth. Nature is not our right but a privilege. For the environment to grow， humanity must evolve as well.

FA：You have worked as an architect for more than half a century now. You describe yourself as a man who has fought and failed repeatedly. Like boxing， bidding requires power and strength， also a strong desire to beat the opponent. Can you share with us a project that means a lot to you？

Tadao Ando：The tense moments waiting for the bell to ring in a boxing match are uplifting yet nerve-racking. New building projects require the same mentality. In boxing， you must risk moving into danger to fully take advantage of your skills and eventually win the match. Creating something in architecture – not just building something but also creating something – also requires the courage to take risks. Taking that extra step forward into the unknown is vital.

When you are a boxer， you prepare for years for rounds that will only last minutes. It’s a fight， basic and primitive. Architecture， on the other hand， is a very long match， much longer than three minutes， but the tension must be maintained just as in boxing. Sometimes architects acquire a taste for fame and lose their discipline because they have forgotten the hunger of their early careers when you are the only one you can rely on. Boxing is a sport of pure stoicism and solitude； in the process of pushing your body and mind to the absolute limit， power is generated. Architecture is the same. Each project has a strict program and budget， and there might be little freedom to design. You must think through what is truly necessary and what needs to be built.

FA：Let’s talk about your China project. He Art Museum in Shunde locates in southern Canton. What is your understanding of the local architecture and culture？ How do you integrate these traditions into your design of the art museum. What inspired your design at the first place？

Tadao Ando：I first thought of the building as the materialization of a single ripple spreading through a great body of water. The core is positioned at the node of the metaphorical "dropped pebble，" its energy reverberating to its surroundings as the wave’s diameter gradually increases. This image gave form to four vertically stacked circular volumes growing in fixed increments. A three-dimensional arrangement of overlapping circles provides each space with a clear axiality and creates a varied and dynamic sequence that matches the city’s energy. The central core connects the entire concept together and becomes a symbolic and important space in the museum.

From the project’s infancy， the client decided to name the structure "He Art Museum" （He：和） as part of their desire to create a place of harmony and peace through art and culture. I fully embraced this idea throughout the design process. This appears in the various design features of the museum.

The entry sequence is designed with a dynamic contrast between the natural and the man-made to provide unique yet unexpected "surprises". Along the perimeter of the water feature are double-layered concrete walls veiled with plants. Creating depth in space by varying the circulation and visibility through the walls and greenery was inspired by traditional Chinese gardens. The significant water feature serves to reflect and harmonize the building with the landscape and urban environment. The culture of Lingnan exudes a unique sense of strength. He Museum was inspired by the tradition of Lingnan that has been strongly influenced by the ideas of the culture in Zhong shan of Central China. One of the goals of the design of the He Art Museum was to carry on the strength of Chinese culture. However， I sought to do this not by using traditional cultural motifs but by inheriting the spirit behind the culture. Particularly in the culture of the ancient Nanyue kingdom in the Lingnan region， the circle has been used in numerous disciplines， including architecture and art， as a symbol of harmony （yin and yang） and auspiciousness. The circular form represents a geometry rooted in the region’s vernacular.

FA：It took 5 years to prepare for the museum and 3 years to build it. What was the biggest challenge during the construction process？ It is said that Mr. Aoki， who has been cooperating with you for a long time， was sent to the construction site at the final stage so that the project could finish successfully. I heard that after the museum was completed， you wrote a letter to the local construction team， could you tell us a little about the letter， what did you write？

Tadao Ando：The double spiral concrete staircase in the center of the He Art Museum is the soul of this architecture but was extremely difficult to execute well. The walls surrounding the stairwell support the spiral staircase and function as the core of the entire museum. It is designed as a symbolic spatial experience and as the structural core of the building.

There are always problems with architecture， regardless of size， but only when the team overcomes these problems is robust architecture born. A tenacious dialogue with Mr. Aoki at the construction site and the unwavering dedication of the local architect and the construction team made a high-quality structure possible. In any project， the local construction team directly addresses the problems that occur on the construction site. I am deeply grateful for the efforts of the client， local construction team， and local architect.

FA：Traditionally， architecture has been the collaboration between architects and craftsmen. However ， the modern architecture has developed in such a niche way that architect and craftsmanship tend to be more separate. How do you see the value of handwork and craftsmanship？ Can you share some stories of your collaboration with the local craftsmen during your numerous international projects？ Are they all very different？ What’s in common？

Tadao Ando：Initially in China， I tried to design and build as I did in Japan. Still， China has different values and cultures， so what can be made in Japan cannot be replicated precisely in China， not because of technical abilities but cultural differences. Through my architectural career in China for the past decades， I came to realize the country’s tremendous vitality and strength. The successful realization of many of my recent projects is a testament to the great leap forward in China’s level of construction technology today.

Each country I work in has differences in construction methods， types of materials， and cultural differences. The common thread through all of my international projects however， is a passionate client and construction team. Architecture is a team activity that requires the trust and collaboration between many talented and hardworking people to achieve.

FA：Among your numerous projects， have you ever made mistakes that you could not excuse or even failed entirely？ Ater all， there is only one chance for concrete casting， are you nervous at the moment of opening the mold？ Why do you love concrete so much？ With the emergence of the new technologies and new materials， such as 3D modeling， will you consider more experiment in your future projects？

Tadao Ando：Concrete is a material symbolic of contemporary architecture. It can be found anywhere globally， but my passion has always been to use this material available everywhere to create spaces found nowhere.

The allure of concrete resides in its ability to vary based on location and beholder. With every use， the depth of expression can completely change. Le Corbusier used concrete as if it were clay， harnessing its plastic quality almost as if he were a sculptor. Louis Kahn used concrete as if it were hard as steel. The same material， two different effects. In the same way， I have searched for my own expression of concrete during my career， like the washi of the Japanese shoji.

FA：There are many similarities between the traditional houses in southern China and the Japanese architecture， such as the understanding of space. In Western architecture we usually experience the enclosed space， whilst the space in oriental aesthetic gives is mostly semi-open. One thing I reflected is that if we look at the traditional Japanese architecture， the relationship between sliding screens， through which the interior and exterior space of the building can be flexibly separated or connected. From the perspective of spatial relations， your architecture seems to be closer to the European architectural tradition where you play the game of light and shadow， the dramatic tension of space and the use of geometry. What is your approach to the tradition of the West or the East？

Tadao Ando：For me， the biggest difference in the architecture of West and East is light and ideas about solid and void. Light is a mirror that reflects the culture of place.

The history of building in Western architectural thought has been to puncture openings into stone masses to flood darkness with light. I think of the Pantheon in Rome， where the ever-changing streams of light flow through an oculus according to the sun’s movements， and the Monasteries of Senaque， where ultimate spirituality is attained through pure and ascetic light.

In the traditional architecture of the shimaguni （island country） of Japan， the existence of the "wall" to separate interior and exterior is nonessential due to its temperate climate. Japanese architectural devices like shoji act as wood and paper "umbrellas" under which we can live. The traditional light of Japan was not formed by the sun’s harsh rays but by komorebi （soft， dappled light） provided by the shadows. I am influenced by the light of both the East and the West.

FA：Modernism architectures emphasize the integration of form and function， however until this day， architecture as landmark has been the major pursuit. We have seen too many buildings with excessive form that inevitably at the cost of the function. What is your definition for a good architecture ？ Today when we look at the modernist masters such as Le Corbusier， Mies van der Rohe， Louis Kahn and Wright， what new can we learn from them and what can we renovate？

Tadao Ando：Function separates architecture from all the other arts. By function， I do not mean how easy or difficult a building is to use. The question is whether or not the human proportion can be placed into the space of a building. It does not matter if it is an actual constructed building， an unrealized project， or even a proposal in which the architecture has given free rein to imagination. Architecture cannot exist without relating to human beings. The program from which architecture is generated， and an interpretation of the program are indispensable to architecture.

However， what constitutes the boundary between art and architecture？ Artists are very courageous. They are stepping forward all the time. Architects must do the same. We must share the fear of challenging the unseen world. The combination of art and architecture can produce spaces of profound originality. By transcending the boundary between architecture and art， we can capture new kinds of free formal expression.

FA：You once said that you’d go back to where you started at the age of 75 and do small interesting projects. Your Row House in Sumiyoshi and Kobe 4*4 projects are very much such examples. They have rich architectural languages， very vital and full of tension， which is difficult to see in a large project. Do you still take on small commissions like this today？

Tadao Ando：Yes recently， I completed a project for the artist Taizo Kuroda， who sadly passed away this month. I designed a very small gallery of only 17 square meters for his ceramics， where his art is reflected in a shallow pool of water.

FA：So many houses you have designed， I am curious what kind of houses you live in？ My architect friends all wonder what other hobbies you have besides physical exercise？ I think you might be an ascetic.

Tadao Ando：I live in a highrise building five minutes from my office. I don’t think I would like to live in a building of my own design. Concrete is too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter！

One of my hobbies is planting trees and greenery around my hometown of Osaka. This began in 1996 with the Hyogo Green Network after the HanshinAwaji Earthquake of 1995. I have often heard that during earthquakes， large trees can save houses from collapsing. I made many visits to Kobe immediately after the earthquake， and when I first saw white magnolias in bloom in the first spring after the disaster， it seemed to comfort those who had lost their loved ones. While the local government had decided to create a housing construction project as part of the rehabilitation efforts， I conceived the idea for volunteers to plant two trees for each of the 125，000 planned housing units. By planting trees between buildings， I hoped that the greenery would create new communities and repair the townscape affected by the earthquake. Thanks to donations from residents and towns all over Japan， we were able to exceed our initial target and planted more than 300，000 trees. Since then， I have pursued other endeavors such as the Sea Forest in Tokyo Bay and the planting of cherry trees on Naoshima.

FA： There have been many Japanese artists and intellects in the 1960s and 70s who had great impact to the world art scenes. Tell us some of your deep impressions of the 1960s and 1970s， Kazuo Shiraga and the Mona-ha movements are among the most important ones. Shiraga’s work showed in He Museum is stunning. Have you some personal stories about these artists that you can share with us？ How do you relate the avant-garde art of the time to your architectural practice？

Tadao Ando：A diverse array of artists gathered in the Gutai movement， which was established in 1954. Shuji Mukai drew endless hierographic symbols， and there was Takesada Matsutani who filled canvases black with pencil. Everyone in the group had eccentric personalities， including the founding members Jiro Yoshihara and Shozo Shimamoto， and others like Atsuko Tanaka and Sadamasa Motonaga. They did not behave like artists. They did not care about their lifestyles and only worried about expressing themselves as they pursued their own idiosyncratic expressions. For them， art was a way to break through the walls of existing social conventions and systems that constrained free thinking and to allow them to review things from the outset with their own eyes.

Beyond Gutai， I have had connections with artists and designers like Yayoi Kusama， Issey Miyake， and many others， whose spirit of challenge to explore uncharted territories in their respective fields inspired me. I think we get along so well because we walk the same path of challenging creation to the extreme. I believe that the"freedom" that permits such diverse interpretations is the"wealth" of art and that the scenery where such "freedom" is visible and hidden in people’s daily lives is the form of a truly prosperous society.

FA：Richard Long who is also my favorite artist has left a work on Naoshima. In my opinion， Ling’s walking on the earth surface are quite Taoism orientated， transcending spirit with harmony of body and mind. Do you remember Richard Long’s work in Naoshima？

Tadao Ando：Yes， actually， it is quite an interesting story. Mr. Soichiro Fukutake devised a plan to have Richard Long’s art in a museum I designed on Naoshima known as the Benesse House Museum and Oval. Mr. Fukutake has a solid sense of intuition and knew that if he were to leave paint and brushes next to an empty wall， Richard Long might pick them up and start drawing. It went exactly according to his plan， and now there are two unique artworks by Richard Long in the museums， drawn directly on the wall.

FA：He Art Museum’s exhibition showed works by Pablo Picasso， Ellsworth Kelly， Alexander Calder， Richard Long， Anish Kapoor and Damien Hirst， Kazuo Hoy， Chiyoshi Yoshihara， Ufan Lee and Hiroshi Sugimoto. There are amazing collections. Curator Shao Shu told me that in order to cooperate with your exhibition， you sent your team to look for artworks by these artists for the theme "Urban Hesitation". You eventually collected 8 pieces artworks among these artists. Incredible！ These are almost priceless works！ As a Chinese saying goes， a thousand pieces of gold are easy to get， but a friend is hard to find. You get commissions from consignés who would make other colleagues jealous and you keep friendly relationships with them. These friendships as well as your architectures have become legendaries. How did you make it？

Tadao Ando：In terms of art， my values are based on the memory of a vivid encounter with contemporary art in my youth. The action paintings of Jackson Pollock， the intelligent pop art of 1960s America， and Japan’s first global avant-garde art group， the Gutai Art Association. In particular， the influence of the artists of Gutai， with whom I was able to interact closely because we were all in the Kansai region of Japan， was significant.

As an architect， it is vital to maintain relationships with people. When you work alongside people who hold the same passion for their profession as you， there is mutual understanding and respect. I never seek to network but to learn from the people around me.

FA：The Naoshima project has lasted for 30 years. It has grown like creatures in the nature， perfectly illustrated your utopian imagination of architecture.

With the help of art， Naoshima， the abandoned islands has got a nearly eternal life. In the lecture you gave together with Mr. Yoichiro Fukuo and Mr. Lee Ufan at the 13th Shanghai Biennale -- ’--’ Recovery of Power from the Sea ’and the Rural Rebirth" showed excellent examples for the current rural construction and revival movement in China. The "Naoshima Mode" has also been brought by Mr. Fukuo to Peach Island in Shandong Province， China. Tell us something about your 30 years friendship with Mr. Fukuo.

Tadao Ando：I think you are referring to Mr. Fukutake. Naoshima began as an initiative born from the passion of President Soichiro Fukutake of Benesse Holdings， Inc.

For architecture to fully unify with nature， time and patience are required. The real challenge lies not in the design and construction of a building but the love and maintenance for it after it is completed. I believe architects have a responsibility to nurture their work so their buildings will mature with the passing of time. I have spent the last thirty years creating seven museums on Naoshima. I am profoundly invested in the architecture I have created on this island. Art， nature， and humans collide together to produce a thoughtprovoking experience that results in a place of endless possibilities. There， geometric architecture embedded in the Earth entices the imagination of its visitors and establishes a dialogue with art and its surroundings.

Nature conceals most of my structures on Naoshima. The external appearance of each of the buildings does not give any indication of the interior spaces. The visitor can shift their thought away from the building’s shape and focus on their feelings and spatial experiences on the relationship between art and landscape. There are also independent artworks spread throughout the island， where the nature of Setouchi sets a stage for each artist. Artists often create pieces inspired by the surroundings and invent works of art that are completely specific to their locations. The idea that the combination of art， architecture， and nature has the power to revitalize is consistent throughout all of the projects on Naoshima.

FA：Urban renewal and rural revival have become the important topics in China’s current and future planning. Many young architects find great playgrounds for them to realize their ambitions. When dealing with the urbanization and rural renovation， what suggestions would you give to them？

Tadao Ando：In a recent turning point of civilization， as an era of growth transitioned to an economic downturn， the prevalence of building renovation gained traction in Asian countries such as Japan and China， despite an enduring urban culture of continuously demolishing and reconstructing architecture. The spectrum of renovation spans from the restoration and preservation of cultural heritage sites to the conversion-like reuse of ordinary buildings. As disparate as these typologies of architectural revitalization may seem， they are both premised on the admirable idea of utilizing existing structures instead of demolishing them.

The essence of renovation should be the record and memory of the communal history which resides within the place. Examining metropolises like Paris or New York， we can observe that the aggregation of a city’s history fosters its culture. The past is conveyed through tangible objects rather than transferred information or virtual realities and forms a culture’s fertile "soil，" establishing temporal continuities to the urban fabric. Of course， the older a building’s age， the more technical prowess， and economic energy will be required to restore and conserve it. At times， the efforts to protect a building’s record and memory may pose a the most significant obstacle in its effective reuse. Yet， I believe the objective of renovation is to inherit and pass on history to future generations. Its many benefits heavily outweigh the challenges regarding the excessive expenditure of labor and creativity. The frequent discourse between the traditional and the modern will evoke the interwoven urban fabric of time from past to present to future. Time and space fold within each other to ensure the continued sustenance of our cities for generations to come.

FA：Our FA Fortune Magazine has an architectural design section dedicated to introducing the rural construction projects of young architects in China. We have a "FA Young Architect Award" to encourage more young people， especially architects outside the mainstream schools of academic architecture， to participate in rural construction. Could you please say something to encourage these young people？

Tadao Ando：I would tell my younger self always to pursue endeavors that you think are challenging. Also， to never give up your dreams. I believe that your twenties， whether you choose to be an architect or not， are crucial years that impact life thereafter. Whether you can live your impressionable twenties with vigilance will determine if you will be able to live the life you desire by the time you reach your forties or fifties.

During this period， young people search for their ideals and create their own worldviews. You could say that this is when the self is created. During my own twenties， I encountered people and things that would eventually shape the core of my being and create who I am today. It was a time of forging close ties with others. The encounters in my twenties became directly related to my later work. When I was young， I had many friends who studied architecture at the University of Kyoto. Through them， I learned about the philosophers Tetsuro Watsuji and Kitaro Nishada， who gained a great deal of attention among students. Fate is a funny thing； in 1980 I created the Tetsuro Watsuji Memorial Hall in Himeji and have since been afforded the privilege of designing the Kitaro Nishida Museum of Philosophy in Ishikawa Prefecture. The various experiences that broadened my perspective during my youth speak to me today， as they have through the years.

FA：If you had not read the complete works of Le Corbusier， would you have been engaged in architecture？

Tadao Ando：I am not sure what would have happened. I try not to think about "what if" scenarios and always continue to move toward the future.

FA：May I like tell you a story about one of the winners of the first FA Young Architect Award？ A young man from a village in Hunan province who had no education in architecture nor university. One day， he saw a book in a second-hand book stall in Beijing and decided to become an architect. To do so， he sold his apartment in Beijing and cut himself off from the outside world， working as an audit student in a university’s architecture department for several years. After winning the prize， he was nicknamed "the self-taught wild architect". This young man is Wang Qiuan. The book he saw was written by you. "Repeated Failure Repeated Fighting "